Prosport is carrying the following article about Simone Biles, who they tip as a favourite for Olympic gold. I thought I would share it here (Google translate in italics) as it gives an interesting perspective on where the Russians feel the sport is heading. Elena Zamolidchikova and Alexander Alexandrov are both extensively quoted.
Atypical American. Simon Biles on the way to Olympic gold
Simone Biles, American gymnast, turned 18 on March 14, 2015. Shortly before this, the first in US history absolute Olympic gymnastics champion Mary Lou Retton called Biles perhaps the most gifted athlete in the history of the sport. In 2014, Simon became the first gymnast for 40 years to win four gold at a World Championships. But Biles is not only talent. This is the first gymnast in recent years from the United States, who is not going to earn on its potential Olympic success.
Text: Alexander Vladimirov March 15, 2015 9:35
The article on Prosport/Photo: Lintao Zhang / Getty Images / Fotobank.ru
The first world championship in her career Simone Biles ended in scandal. Competitions were on a beam overlooking the penultimate women's final. Biles acted not entirely successful, but still won the bronze. The Italian, Carlotta Ferlito, whispered to her friend Vanessa Ferrari : "The next time we need to make our skin black, and then we will also win." Whisper was too loud, and the Italian's words came to the ears of the USA Gymnastics Federation . Officials considered it a racist remark and demanded an official apology. And Simone arrived at the next World Championship and proved - it is not a colour, but the fact that she now simply has no equal in the world.
After the Russian Svetlana Khorkina left the sport, in the women's gymnastics was no hint of the hegemony of a single athlete. From 2004 to 2013 all major events (Olympic Games and World Championships) in the individual all-around, the most prestigious gymnastic discipline, won various gymnasts. During this time, the absolute champion had become eight girls from the United States, one Italian and one Russian - Aliya Mustafina. Repeat its success could only Simone Biles, the first African-American woman who became the absolute world champion. At two world championships - 2013 and 2014 - she won nine medals, six of which - gold. At these tournaments Simone did not get on the podium in only one discipline - Uneven Bars.
Photo: Jared Wickerham / Getty Images / Fotobank.ru
"There is a category of athletes who love to perform - explains the two-time Olympic gymnastics champion Elena Zamolodchikova. - They might have something go wrong in training, but on the competition platform changes everything. It's a very small category of athletes, and Simone Biles - one of them. Love to fight and act - it is really unique. Plus, Simone is very gifted by nature. Her main strength - jump in the shells, they need very strong, "tolkuchie" legs - as Simone. Even beam is at a very decent for all around level, however, I did not think she could pull it up to fight for the medals in a single discipline. This apparatus is likely to remain the other gymnasts, although, of course, anything can happen in sport. "
Speaking of the American Olympic prospects, Zamolodchikova agrees - Simone Biles really needs to become a favourite for the Games in Rio de Janeiro. The complexity of her programmes every year only grow, and added experience. But what will happen after the Olympics, a former gymnast and now a judge of the international category, is not ready to predict.
"The American school gymnastics is notorious for girls after big wins at the Olympic Games to finish their career - says Zamolodchikova. - 'They start a project, do advertising endorsements, and so on. I can not even give one example of an American gymnast who continued to practice after having won the gold, and then returned to her previous level. "
American gymnasts do not return, primarily because it is not needed. Gymnastics in the United States is now at a level that instead of a champion can come several athletes who are ready to repeat the result. Time when the Soviet /Russian gymnasts shared all the gold with Romania is in the past. With each Olympic cycle superiority of the American school is becoming more noticeable.
Photo: Dean Mouhtaropoulos / Getty Images / Fotobank.ru
It all started in 1981 when Romanian expert Bela Karolyi and his wife, Martha, coaches five times Olympic champion Nadia Comaneci, moved to America. They began to do business at the gym, which already in the nineties began to bring very good money.
"A related tide of coaches from [former] socialist countries, the Soviet Union - says the former coach of women's national team of Russia and Aliya Mustafina Alexander Alexandrov, who has worked for more than ten years in the United States. - It was Bella Karoly called me to work in the United States. When we came to the local competition, it was not clear - whether we are in the United States, whether in the championship of Russia. Around it was a Russian. Now, of course, there are fewer Russian-speaking professionals. Many simply left for other countries. "
In the US, so far there is no centralized training of the national team (as in Russia). Neither gymnast does not sit permanently on the basis of the team. Everyone involved in the club, and just before the start all the important members of the team come together.
"In the US gymnastics now - a very popular sport, - says Alexander. - Children and parents see victory on television and are willing to pay for something, to learn to speak the same way. Many people want to train in those rooms, where he grew up champion. If the result of, then there is a good coach. On the one hand, children will not be hanging out on the street - there is also plenty of options for how to lose a child. On the other hand, if there are successes, then, at least, will have the opportunity to go to university and get free higher education and it is in the United States very expensive. There is still a chance to get into the national team, and go to the Olympics. But that's another return. They say that the Olympic champion Douglas earned $90 million - on advertising and so on. It is clear that the figure, it is perhaps exaggerated, but advertising contracts champions really earn very well. "
However, not everyone is ready to accept the conditions of the game, for which there is an American gymnastic world. In November 2014 Simon Biles signed an agreement with the University of California, Los Angeles (12th place in the ranking of the best universities in the world) that after the Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro, she will become a student member of the local student team. Education Simone will be free, as it will pay a stipend, but to participate in the filming of advertising and other commercial activities according to the rules of the National Collegiate Athletic Association gymnast can not.
"I think student gymnastics - is more or less the goal of everyone who begins to engage in sports, of course, if you do not talk about a trip to the Olympics. - Explained his choice in an interview with ESPN Biles. - I think it's great - to finish your career in the status of student-athlete. I think student exercises a lot more fun than the adult professional. There's all too seriously. And I want little kids looked at me and said, "Wow, she really gets pleasure from it all!"
I think Simone is talented, however the pictures shown in this article are the perfect example of how the sport doesn´t care about form anymore, yes Simone has great form on her acrobatics, but when it comes to dancing elements she is not at the level of a world champion, just look, she can not even point her toes.
ReplyDeleteI think the sport is really losing its essence, now acrobats are taking all the medals, it does not matter how clean you are or if you have good technique, as long as you throw the big skills you are fine.
Do you see someone like Skinner winning a medal in the 90´s or 80´s? Neither do I.
Yes, the sport changes but this is just ridiculous, it doesn´t look like artistic gymnastics anymore, I feel like is not a complete victory when you are lacking certain aspects of the sports.
The fact that difficulty is what makes you a winner is also making the sport boring to watch, now we know who is going to win, competition does not exist anymore, this last championships were absolutely boring and predictable, I was more thrilled to see Iordache fighting n the all around, Mustafina doing the triple y turn, Pileska doing her new routine etc etc However Biles winnin brought no surprise to me (or everyone I would say) and that is sad, Gymnastics used to make you feel nervous about who was going to win, how just a tiny error could send you from first to fourth.... Now the emotion is gone, everyone knows who the next world all around champion is going to be, which team will be the winner, we know we will see the same boring routines from last year getting the same nflated scores, the same ugly choreos winning gold medals.
Honestly gymnastics is just going downhill, Simone is very good, but I dont think she is the perfect example of what a real ARTISTIC GYMNAST should be.
A. Simone is not pictured executing any dance elements in this article. I think you've misinterpreted the third picture as being a pike jump. In fact, it's a picture of her piked Tkachev on the uneven bars. I don't know if you've ever noticed, but most gymnasts have trouble pointing their toes during piked releases on the uneven bars. Not even Anastasia Grishina manages it.
DeleteB. If you honestly think there is any objective way to say whether or not any gymnast, Simone Biles included, is "artistic," you don't really understand what artistry is.
C. If you ask me - I find a certain breathtaking artistry in the way that Simone Biles executes every tumbling-related skill nearly perfectly and, usually, lands as lightly as a bird. So, if you were wondering how anyone could ever consider her artistic - there's my reason. One of them, anyway.
I don't know Lauren C.... Biles could easily be a power tumbler/trampoline gymnast instead of an artistic one. Each quad I see an American who is strong enough to do VT, FX and difficult elements on beam as long as she doesn't fall. It feels like that's the plan and taking care of the rest is secondary including bars. I don't know how is that artistic in my opinion.
DeleteAnd for having good form on her acrobatics and landing "lightly," again that's something you see in power tumbling.
I cannot agree more on what sport artistics have become nowadays. Everything is so predictable with the d score of the routine that the gymnasts are performing. Gymnasts with perfect execution yet low sv of routine couldn't even come close to the podium in this era, and so it encourages gymnasts to fight and attempt dangerous moves in order to medal, which results in many injuries. This trend is not at all healthy. I hope more attention can be given to gymnasts' execution in the next COP. Frankly, I would love to see a beautifully executed DTY than an Amanar with horrible form; I would rather watch leaps with toes pointed and of 180 rather than some F/G rated tumblings that make the podium. More deduction should be made to horrible executions.
DeleteI cannot agree more on what sport artistics have become nowadays. Everything is so predictable with the d score of the routine that the gymnasts are performing. Gymnasts with perfect execution yet low sv of routine couldn't even come close to the podium in this era, and so it encourages gymnasts to fight and attempt dangerous moves in order to medal, which results in many injuries. This trend is not at all healthy. I hope more attention can be given to gymnasts' execution in the next COP. Frankly, I would love to see a beautifully executed DTY than an Amanar with horrible form; I would rather watch leaps with toes pointed and of 180 rather than some F/G rated tumblings that make the podium. More deduction should be made to horrible executions.
DeleteI really don't want to sound heartless but I honestly hope that Simone does not win the AA gold in Rio. It's not because I don't think she's talented- she's a great acrobat, but please remember this is artistic gymnastics. Gymnasts like her winning over others who put greater effort into form, execution and artistry does so much to destroy the grace and beauty which made me watch the sport in the first place. Besides, I'm getting a tad bored of the lack of competition and nail- biting suspense.
ReplyDeleteGrace and beauty are not synonyms for artistry.
DeleteNo, but they help.
DeleteAnd what do YOU think is artistry?
But like Simone has amazing form on nearly every apparatus. I will never understand people who say Biles should be a power tumbler instead of an artistic gymnast. Is it because you people want the russians to win? Simone, in my opinion is probably more artistic than half of the russians out there who fall all over the place. I understand people who have opinions on how they dont like Simone's floor routines, but I dont understand people who wish something bad on another gymnast. You actually hope that she doesn't achieve her dream of being an Olympic champion? That is heartless, in my opinion. Plus, it's not Simone's fault that gymnasts all over the world are falling all over the place and dont have good conditioning and coaching skills that she's winning.
DeleteIf I sounded rude, I didn't mean to. But I'm just wondering, have you seen gymnasts like Grishina or Aliya or even Vika with absolutely perfect form on every apparatus? If I recall correctly, Grishina's toes aren't always pointed on her piked jaeger, Aliya's twisting form is horrible, and Vika's short handstands on bars aren't nice to watch either. Keep in mind, I am not using these gymnasts to attack them, I'm a huge fan of them, but I'm using them as examples as they seem to be the most popular gymnasts of artistry here. And lets take Simone as an example too to show I'm not a huge stan of her. Yes she doesn't point her feet sometimes and she does have form issues just like very other gymnast but have you seen her amanar? her floor routine? I really hope she wins AA in rio, because I think thats what the sport of gymnastics really is, execution, artistry and consistency. And I think Simone has every aspect of these three things.
Queen Elizabeth, in response to your question on what I think is artistry: I think artistry is putting your whole soul and heart into the routine. You see simone smiling and dancing and actually living up to the choreography. Is that 'grace and beauty'? No it's not. But is it artistry? Yes it definitely is. I'd rather see someone who actually enjoys being out there than someone looking bored and doing a half assed floor routine.
Bottom line is I dont think Simone is perfect, but I do think that people shouldn't degrade her and wish something bad on her just because they're bored or because they're upset their faves aren't winning.
I haven't commented for some time on one of these posts, although still avidly reading anything Queen Elizabeth is able to provide for us, but felt this article is a great source of deep thought and could provide us all with some ongoing speculation now that the Olympic trail is becoming hot and realized.
ReplyDeleteI myself haven't been able to place Simone for a few years now. I have a hometown sense of support for the US team, but a certain love and pride for the Russian gymnasts (hence the love of this blog) so I never personally cared for Simone's style myself. I felt compelled to a disregard her and secretly pray that other talent in the US camp would rise above her the next year. However something I have seen with Simone is tremendous improvement and refinement since her arrival on the senior international scene and this uncanny ability to stay calm on the podium that the Russian girls just cannot seem to master. Simone has a shorter, slightly stockier build that will unfortunately never allow her to have the extension and beautiful lines that our Russian girls have, and there is still tremendous room for improvement in areas such as toe point, perceived artistry in dance movement, and overall rhythmicality, but what Simone has is an untouchable confidence in every move she performs, and that is my opinion and hopeful contribution to what I think this particular article is getting at.
I think Queen Elizabeth is trying to show us that there is evidence from at least some part of the Russian camp that they feel defeated before they even begin. They have too often settled for silver (or no medal) as a team and the feeling going in that their maximum attainable goal is silver is not allowing for the right mindset on the competition floor when it counts. This saddens me as well, as we all enjoy a tight, nail biting competition, but unless that mindset is changed I feel that major errors will still occur with the Russian girls in the major competitions. In pondering the "potential" there are most certainly routines from a variety of different Russian girls that have the potential to score quite high and thus keep Russia in the running in a team format (Kharanova on beam, Afanasayeva on floor, etc...). Many fans have said Russia in incapable of beating the US or China in a team format, but we have seen quite a bit of strife from the Chinese team in recent years as well. They are tremendous in potential on bars and beam but again, they make many mistakes when it counts, and just do not have the power or grace on floor that they need to contend on all four apparatus. I think both teams are human and absolutely beatable if Russia is simply on point on all events with their best gymnasts at top health.
The problem partially lies with their poor conditioning and mental instabilities. The one thing that Simone has above all is her mental toughness. You never see her not smiling, there are never worry lines in her facial expressions, her body language is positive and upbeat. She believes in what she can do and this has shown drastic improvement for her on all events, especially on beam where she now may have a slight bobble that is immediately covered with a determined fight to stay on. No she is not the perfect artistic gymnast, but one has to admit after seeing her recent routines at the American Cup that her form on bars is getting much cleaner, her vault has been nearly perfected, and her landings on floor fairly controlled, and form much cleaner. I think what everyone is disappointed with is not her ability to present a clean routine, but the lack of natural fluidity that comes so readily for the Russian girls. It seems like if the Russian girls could just command that same mental fortitude and improved physical conditioning, they could fight through every routine and be equally competitive on every apparatus. We too often see slumped shoulders, that sense of defeat before they even begin, and the falls that could have been all too easily prevented with a bit of fight and certainty. They make a mistake and the rest of the routine becomes labored and haphazard and they leave the podium with slumped shoulders, and sit frowning instead of just moving past it and beginning preparations for the next event.
ReplyDeleteRussia has some young talent that I do think will be in the mix for Rio, but I am wondering what everyone thinks about the ability to refine these new seniors in the year that is left. I am particularly interested in seeing how Seda improves over the year leading up to the games. She has massive potential, great possibility for equally difficult routines, but I feel like something is missing. She all too often appears out of control on her landings, spins, and leaps and inconsistent on beam and bars perhaps due to poor conditioning? She has a bit a different style compared to many of the other Russian girls. I know I read somewhere that she is of Armenian heritage, but Queen Elizabeth do you happen to know if Seda had her gymnastics start in Russia? Or did she immigrate with her family after already getting her gymnastic fundamentals in place?
Either way, I am very interested to see how Russia prepares for this year's worlds. They do finally have a handful more girls who are able to fight for a spot on the team so I am wondering if this internal competition will give them the boost they need to personally perfect every skill and give them the determination and body awareness that they so desperately need on the competition floor....
Uliankina's gymnasts have more difficulty than the average Russian gymnast, but they lack flexibility and dance. It's a shame that Sostnitskaya cannot perform good leaps on floor. Same with Paseka and Seda.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, if the Code allows good execution scores for Biles, there is a problem. Look at her dance movements. She is light an powerful, but between the difficult elements it's a mess. Little improvement on that. Otherwise those pictures would not be from her routines Has she ever worked on leg extension? It takes a lot of time to work on that. Afanassieva can be powerful and have good lines at the same time.
Just to add my voice.
ReplyDeleteI think it is remarkable that the pictures you can see were chosen to illustrate this article, and come from collections such as Getty. I kept the text in view to demonstrate that they were chosen by the publication, and not by me. Clearly, these perspectives are now seen as the best of gymnastics – but you won’t see a picture of Grishina doing a layout back like that!
I really like Simone. She is quite clearly the most talented gymnast of this generation and I agree that she is by far the favourite for Olympic gold all around, and deservedly so. The artistry in her work stems from the spontaneity, ease and power of her tumbling and the pace of her work. She is a joy to watch on floor and vault. She has improved her line, toe point and landings since first winning the world title in 2013 and her happy, extrovert personality converts to expression. I am a big fan.
It is a pity though, that the FIG has lost sight of the finer points of artistry in its marking - and it is only by recognising artistry that gymnasts will be encouraged to present routines that are capable of artistic merit. For more than forty years the Code of Points operated in such a way that artistry was recognised and rewarded. The concept of artistry was embedded and operationalised in various paragraphs within the Code and as a result it is generally agreed that the sport was far more watchable in the 70s, 80s and 90s than it is today. Despite the fact that the judges weren't cultural theoreticians, they were able to evaluate artistry fairly and in a way that encouraged good gymnastics to develop and grow. The existing model of artistry related to economy of line, the way that the gymnast overcame gravity, and complexity. The word ‘complexity’ allowed for some movement in the recognition of what was difficult, so for example the complex dance compositions of Boguinskaia qualified as complexity even though at times her tumbling was not that difficult.
At other times, this model was enhanced with reference to ideas such as risk, originality, virtuosity. It all worked and nobody had any problems with what was artistry and what wasn't. The problems only arose when the FIG reduced artistry to a deduction, wrote out the existing overarching requirement for balance and harmony, and attempted to deconstruct and break it down as a list of requirements.
I think the artistry deductions are taken to some degree. Claire Martin (FRA), Lieke Wevers (NED), Anna Pavlova and Julie Crocket (BEL) had higher E scores than many gymnasts with similar execution - but these gymnasts all had expressive floors. It's unfortunate that the perceived bonus (or lack of artistry deductions) is a few tenths only.
DeleteGood point - viewing artistry as an add on or deduction doesn't really work when artistry is an inherent quality that only makes itself evident through a whole routine.
DeleteI read and reread this article and the comments several times and scribbled a few words explaining the reason why we must understand the artistic part as dance. I gave up. It is hypocritical to try to justify the artistic elements of artistic gymnastics are not dancing. Ballet is one of several forms of dance. Furthermore, as stated above, the Code makes so many demands that the choreographic part is damaged and dull. Similarly, when the Code provides so many penalties for the choreography, which becomes easier and smarter only fulfill what the code requires. It is time to face the unpopular idea that some gymnasts are unable to dance and are merely acrobats. For me there are FX routines which are just tumbling passes and I quote Skinner as an example, which for me sums up all the worst of artistic gymnastics nowdays. Pure acrobatics. Excellent level of difficulty, but pure acrobatics. Some leaps and spins is not dancing. Sorry being politically incorrect.
DeleteSimone reminds me of Oksana Omelianchik. She has a very clean style of tumbling in the air, with clearly defined 'phasing' to the tumbles and an economy of line throughout the flight. She is utterly spontaneous and performs wholeheartedly. Oksana has the edge as her lightness, line and complexity were designed to be aesthetically appealing and she was a true all arounder with originality and artistry on all four pieces. Her ballet training benefitted her immensely not only on floor and beam, but also on bars.
ReplyDeleteLike Simone, Oksana's artistry stemmed from the amazing tumbles and difficulty she performed, but, unlike Simone, this was also enhanced by perfect form and line. Her compatriot, Elena Shushunova, was more of the power type, and many of the difficulties she performed are still rare today. Shushunova is much maligned; her gymnastics gained artistry through the originality and difficulty of her work and also through her line and the effortless way she overcame gravity. She was polished to a fine point of performance. Watch her simple Y scale on the beam. This was a characteristic of the Soviets - they rarely sacrificed good technique, line or form at the altar of difficulty. I can find anomalies, but there were whole armies of Soviet gymnasts who performed astonishing difficulty but also kept the importance of the aesthetic in sight. This has been lost from the sport today, almost totally.
How have we arrived at this point? The development of an art form works to various principles. One of them is the idea of the 'sieve of taste' whereby over time art forms develop in response to factors such as market forces, the endorsement of authority figures, arts policy, the opinions of a cultural elite. In sport, particularly in gymnastics, the influence of the 'sieve of taste' is accelerated by the direct pressure of the Code of Points and in this particular version the influence is ever more emphasised by the top-down, undemocratic nature of the diktats about how the sport should be performed, for example the idiotic corner rule.
ReplyDeleteYou can observe the workings of the sieve of taste, although the influences were more subtle under the less prescriptive Codes that operated earlier. For example, Omelianchik's influence on the sport was tangible in the work of such gymnasts as Podkopayeva, a fellow Ukrainian who shared Oksana's crisp, technically precise style along with some of the charm of the ethnic folk and classical influences of her wider culture. Such gymnasts as Laschenova could also be considered to possess a similar charm and technical aplomb. Omelianchik popularised back to back tumbling.
The ballet influence was pervasive, but this is not about the style of dance. All the Soviets benefitted from daily training at the ballet barre as a basic requirement. Remember the shock of the Nijinsky-inspired choreography of Strazheva's floor exercise to Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. The original choreography for the ballet caused a riot because it was a product of modernism and 'northern savagery'. Strazheva’s dance composition incorporated the angular, jerky movements that had so offended the cultural elite back in 1913, and was decidedly unballetic in its presentation, but she still drew on ballet basics in all of her work. People interpret the idea of ballet as light-framed girls in tutus, dancing to Swan Lake or the Nutcracker Suite, whereas in fact as an art form its influence and production is far more diverse. Within gymnastics the ballet fundamentals were merely the aesthetic base on which other skills were laid. To lose sight of these fundamentals is almost totally to undermine the principles that once made gymnastics so great.
Ballet has come under significant fire in recent years in gymnastics, with such people as Marta Karolyi saying that 'you shouldn't have to be a ballerina to do gymnastics'. Interestingly, during her time as a gymnast and coach in Romania Marta's contribution was to beam and floor where she fostered such talents as Comaneci and Ungureanu, so she is far from ignorant of the benefits of ballet training. Why she should trash the idea of ballet so thoroughly is therefore beyond me, except to the extent that it is less pervasive and evident in the work of her gymnasts today.
Coming back to the idea of the sieve of taste, how many gymnasts like Simone Biles are there in gymnastics today? In my opinion, she is unique. What influence will the dominance of Simone Biles have on the future model of gymnastics? There was never another Oksana Omelianchik, and I doubt there will ever be another Simone Biles. Who can match the qualities of this unique talent? Very few. There will, no doubt be imitators – but it will be difficult for them to achieve the same result. Will the judges be able to discern the difference, though? The majority of Simone’s advantage comes from the very high D scores she achieves, allied to the fact that she can perform without attracting execution deductions. Two of Biles' nearest equivalents, Skinner and Fragapane, come to mind. Both are attempting difficulty similar to Simone's - but without the flair of Simone. Both show an almost total disrespect for the basics of good gymnastics. Yet they are rewarded for attempting difficulty. Will the execution deductions be enough to shape artists out of these daring acrobats? I doubt it.
I think that Claudia Fragapane is one of the most artistic gymnasts in the world--her floor routine was the most fresh, unique, and exciting in all of 2014. Queen Elizabeth, what do you think of Larisa Iordache's floor routine?
DeleteI'm not entering into discussion of the merits of individual gymnasts here - but I am sure readers will be interested to hear what you think about these gymnasts' work from the perspective of the various models outlined in the article, or a critique of the models.
DeleteFirst of all I'd just like to say that I love Larisa's routine and I love discussions like this! :) Secondly, I think Claudia's routine embodies the true spirit of the old school Russian style--innovative, charming, and rhythmic. I wish all routines were like hers!! I think Simone has a great flow in her all of her exercises and I have so much fun watching her incredible tumbling. There is room in gymnastics for all styles and types--that's what makes our sport so special! :) :)
DeleteI wish I had read these posts below. I'm also curious on how you Queen E feels about the new floor routines debuted by the Russians. Many are commenting that they produced lovely choreography compared to previous years.
DeleteI think that it is virtually impossible to produce a very good floor routine or beam routine while the Code dictates so many requirements. Artistry is unique to each routine and gymnast and the Code today disrupts the flow and interpretation to any routine apart from those performed to a heavy syncopation and hasty pace. It is the enemy of variety.
DeleteI have discussed on other posts the various dimensions across which artistry can reveal itself - within dance composition, in the form inherent in a gymnast's work. Some artistry can be evident in exceptionally well executed tumbling, some in a very simple move performed to a high level of polish. The virtuoso manner of performance, and great balance and variety of shapes, are what allows artistry to emerge in bars work, and in MAG.
None of these are single definitions or all encompassing but they assist in providing a framework for artistic evaluation.
I am not sure why there is the consensus that Russia's floor work has improved, except for that some of the competitors have matured, and Afanasyeva is back. And that we have seen them relatively little since the autumn, and the quality of floor work in general has degraded at the very top level at least, so that their work looks pleasantly watchable by comparison. The ballet basics are also incorporated in their training from the early days which just makes them look so much better. With a few exceptions.
These exceptions are frequently over emphasised in blog posts and forum comments. So for example Maria Kharenkova, a fabulously entertaining floor worker as a junior, but who has a relative problem in launching herself into leaps that makes her front leg look a bit awkward, was much maligned in her first year as a senior, as she tried to make adjustments to a small injury and greater difficulty at senior level. Now she has grown a little and her long levers look a little more graceful. She has a bit more time in the air and is more confident - it makes a difference. A gymnast like Spiridinova also has benefitted from her exposure and success last year and is working assiduously to improve; but then apart from her lack of reliability, Spiri has always been utterly beautiful in her presentation and form.
What I said before was that they have improved, a little, but I am still not gasping - the many artificial requirements of the Code make it difficult to present routines that have any unifying principle at all.
I agree at all with the Queen E., and it is not need repeating how difficult are the tumbling passes of Simone Biles or how much she has improved in a matter of toe points, the precision landings, very clean routines. She is very charismatic and lovely. I could not help but be a fan. Indeed, her routines are so stunning and difficult that I watch at least about 5 times and I am always impressed as she held difficult elements cleanly. However, I do not see myself watching these routines again and again in next 5 or 10 years. IMO, There is no art. I've lost count of how many times I've watched the old routines of Soviet and Romanian gymnastics. Mostepanova, Korbut, Omelianchik, Strazheva, Shushunova, Boginskaya, Podkopayeva, Khorkina (to this day I remember the tears of Khorkina when she won her gold medal in the world). I watch today by simple delight (sometimes, I really like to do all the math of a judge to see if the Code's requirements have been met and possible execution failures). Watch hands and Larissa Iordache fingers at the end of your exercise soil. It is second to none. The Mustafina´s leaps are 180 or more. The sheep jump Komova in 2012. When the gymnast has strong dance notions, and here I quote any kind of dance (ballet, jazz, contemporary dance, samba, merengue, zumba ....), the gymnast develops a perfect notion of coordination and how performance arms, legs, head and back. Even what is imprecision to the code, the gymanst knows correct them (see Ponor - FX routine Olympic Games EF), and make a harmonious working, beautiful to be seen.
ReplyDeleteWhen Queen E, says "the Ballet has come under significant fire in recent years in gymnastics, because such people as Marta Karolyi saying that 'you shouldn't have to be a ballerina to do gymnastics. Interestingly, during her time as a gymnast and coach in Romania Marta's contribution was to beam and floor where she fostered such talents as Comaneci and Ungureanu, so she is far from ignorant of the benefits of ballet training. Why she should trash the idea of ballet so thoroughly is therefore beyond me, except to the extent that it is less pervasive and evident in the work of her gymnasts today"
IMO, I think it is all about politics because the american gymasts just have ballet classes if they prove that they are good enough to making investiments as elite gymnasts. And it is not a secret for anybody. What I think interesting is why not provide gymnastics and ballet classes. Maybe, the candidate will not be a good gymnast, but she can be good in Ballet. And Ballet in USA had improved a lot for the same reasons of gymnastics: the crash of socialism in Eastern Europe.
The question is: how do they assess execution on bars for instance? Is the gap between Spiridonova and Biles justified? I find the judges very lenient with SImone's and Iordache's execution,
ReplyDeleteThis whole article and comment section is a nightmare. I fear this is what gymnastics will become in the future including Russian gymnastics because gold is more important than grace, elegance, and artistry. Yes, I want the Russian to get a higher level of difficulty but having Simone's level on floor is not even necessary and I think Iordache and Komova are good examples of that.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the English mistakes I made up and still make ... But read this article and the comments section, I see that most people that accompany the artistic gymnastics are clearly unsatisfied with the current code makes the artistic part and, really, if there is a clear confrontation, objective and honest about the problems that exist, the art end. It's time to raise voices, supporting gymnasts and gymnastics schools that promote dance, such as Russia, Romania and China. Mainly to avoid misguided thoughts are spread when people say that to be a gymnast's no need to be a ballerina. No need to be a ballerina, but the gymnast must know how to dance.
DeleteI refuse to take seriously any article that uses Mary Lou Retton to represent the voice of USA gymnastics.
ReplyDelete:-)
DeleteI think subconsciously people associate a stocky build with an inability to be balletic and therefore "artistic." Simone does not look "graceful" to many because she is not thin and lanky. She is muscular and has broad shoulders and is very short. I believe that artistic gymnastics is about combining athletic ability with precision and expression, and I think Simone exemplifies this well and is continuously getting better. I feel that a lot of criticism of her is, either consciously or not, based entirely on factors she cannot control, like the length of her legs or the shape of her build, and people couch this in arguments about a lack of "artistry" or "extension" or - worst and most incorrect of all - "technique."
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'm thrilled that gymnastics seems to be moving away from a equating slim and long-legged shape with artistic presentation. I prefer our more "modern" style of gymnastics. I'm glad to see stockier gymnasts performing and I feel that many of them are superior athletes and more enjoyable to watch. I hated watching Nastia Liukin perform. She looked fragile, breakable, and unconditioned - even her form on bars was frequently loose, sloppy and inaccurate. Similarly Khorkina - constant bent knees and awkward elbows and a look of fragility and insecurity make her incredibly unappealing to me. Many - not all - but many Russian and Chinese gymnasts look like this to me as well. I'm not trying to start an argument over people's favorite gymnasts, since that is quite a matter of opinion. But so many people are bemoaning the loss of what they call 'artistry' that I do want to state that MY preference is the new form of gymnastics. I like how gymnastics has evolved in the past ten years. I don't feel nostalgic for the more dance-heavy, more subjectively judged gymnastics of the 80s and 90s, and I'm glad that gymnasts with more muscular builds are becoming top competitors.
Huh, nope. Have you seen her in that figure skating/gymnastic show? She dances like that muscular guy from the movie "white chicks" and is not like she is doing hard tumbling there to make it up. People keep denying this but even the most muscular ballerinas or dancers don't come near to have the muscularity that Biles has and for a reason. The dance training itself gives fluidity and elasticity, things that all the power gymnasts like Biles seem to lack in their presentation and overall movements.
Delete"entirely on factors she cannot control, like the length of her legs or the shape of her build" So she was born with those muscles? I have to remind you that Shushunova practically had the same body type and yet she had better lines and better dance skills. Clearly you can control how you build your body depending on the training you do.
As for muscular gymnasts looking less fragile I agree on that however this isn't new. We had muscular gymnasts back in the late 80's and 90's doing perhaps stronger tumbling than what the current Russian gymnasts are doing but with incredible artistry so it is possible to have pretty lines and strength and of course good dancing skills.
This is a fascinating article. For a second I would like to steer the discussion away from Simone's supposed lack of artistry (of which the same old inherently flawed talking points keep coming up) and her supposed complete lack of toe point (these pictures are from circa 2013 when Simone's line and form was much worse than it is now) and to something else that this article mentioned: NCAA gymnastics, commercial dealings and internal competitiveness. These are some of the biggest reasons USA gymnastics is succeeding where the traditional powers are failing.
ReplyDeleteI think it's great that elite is no longer the be all end all. The Olympics is no longer the only destination which gymnasts can aspire to what with scholarship programs offering other alternatives. It opens up opportunity for gymnasts by giving them the tools to be something other than just coaches. We all know that it can be hard to transition from a gymnastics lifestyle to a normal one, to go from training and competing in the hardest, most time consuming sport in the world to trying to make a living in a regular career. Many girls found themselves limited by their lack of standard education. Now they can get a free education while doing the sport the love in a festive and upbeat atmosphere while become well-rounded people and that is a huge motivator for so many gymnasts. It encourages parents to invest their resources knowing that their child does not have to go to the Olympics to be successful nor does she have to sacrifice higher education in the pursuit of that goal. There is less chance of high risk, low return.
There also seems to be more money-making options in America. An elite gymnast can make a sweet bit of cash if they go pro at the right time, even though they forfeit their NCAA eligibility in the process. Advertisements, endorsements, prize money, touring - these are all available avenues to girls who want to take them. Elizabeth, do you know what, if any, commercial paths are open to Russian gymnasts?
And then there is the organization of the US program, it's methodical developmental programs, it's semi-centralized federation. Girls must fight, continuously, to make a place for themselves. It's not like other countries where the juniors turn senior and are immediately put on the national team, almost like a rite of passage.
Yes, the Code has hurt gymnastics in many ways but the truth also is that gymnastics programs worldwide are not as good as the current US model. They are awesome where no one else is. It sucks and it shouldn't be that way, but there you go. I thought it interesting that the article touched upon that aspect.
November, thanks for contributing this topic to my blog - it is something I am very interested in.
DeleteI am currently researching the funding models behind the Russian system - more to follow, but much later. It is my opinion that the cultural leanings inherent in Russian sport provide the potential to develop destination branding on a much wider level than is currently seen. This gives the potential for policy level support based on an understanding if the multiplier effects of tourism.
However, this has as a proviso the level and sophistication of the Russian infrastructure and tourism industry marketing. The country showed significant marketing aplomb in the staging of the Sochi Olympic Games, but the infrastructure is very thin so it is difficult to follow through and capitalise on the progress made. And, of course, the Ukraine crisis which followed rapidly in the heels of Sochi has done tourism no good at all. The economy is in crisis and Russia is looking to the East, not the West. It is hard to see where things will end up.
Russia has produced some of the most note able sports millionaires in the world - eg Maria Sharapova. But the endorsement money earned goes direct to the athlete and not into the sports system.
The challenges of broadening the base of the sport, of coach retention etc are such that, as I have said elsewhere on this blog (there are existing whole posts on this subject) it is difficult to see where WAG will go after Rio. The sport has sponsorship from consumer bank VTB but this is mostly capital investment that as far as I can tell doesn't benefit the grass roots at an operational level.
Rodionenko has commented that the lack of a collegiate system is one reason they find it so difficult to get girls into the sport and hold onto them.
I still believe that even with a reduced base Russia will be able to maintain a top three position in the world.
I do not seek to link the Code to the decline in Russia gymnastics, merely to point out that as a cultural influence on gymnastics as an art form, it is the strongest influence by far. It is only natural that the dominant nation will have the strongest influence on the drawing of the Code - it was ever so - and this has therefore favoured the energetic acrobatic style of gymnastics that is so pervasive today. It is an observation.
Simone is one of my favourite gymnasts of the last ten years. I do not think that her physique is what is at issue here. Natalia Laschenova and Elena Produnova were similarly built but still managed to achieve good line etc. it is in the training. The sport has changed now, and people seem to be less concerned with these fundamentals of gymnastics; more is the pity - that however, is not to detract from the great acrobatic work of Simone.
I admire Simone Biles. She is so precise - when it comes to big skills. But it seems to me, that she - or her coaches doesn't care about the details otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI think there are two factors: time and energy.
It probably takes a lot of time and a lot of training to refine the movements in every aspect, not just in the big skills.
And it costs energy, to be precise all the time. If you look at the recent vidoe from the floor of Catheringe Lyons at the English Championships: she doesn't have so much difficulty. But she creates an artwork. She pays attention to every detail. She has to concentrate all the time.
While if you look at Simone Biles' floor from the American cup: she is very precise, when it comes to tumbling, but in between she doesn't have to concentrate like this. There is one moment, where she is standing in the corner before a tumbling path, and her arm is just hanging loose somewhere. I have the impression, she needs these moments in between to relax her mind, in order to concentrate on the next difficult tumbling pass.
It is very difficult, time consuming and enery intense to creat a whole piece of art - on any event. And if one is good or very good at something, it is usually at the expense somewhere else.
It also takes time and training to work on leg extension, composure etc. And I don't think it has to do with built. Of course this comes also into play. What I write know might seem a little harsh: If someone doens't have the physique to do a tripple twist, well he/she doesn't get credit for it "because with a different physique she/he would be able to do it". If someone can't point their toes because of their physique, well, then one should be equally hard.
ReplyDeleteIf we all like Simone's execution, what are we complaining about? She is an acrobatics gymnast, not an artistic gymnast.
The execution of many gymnasts is getting worse and worse. The Code is responsible in so far it comprises requirements that make impossible it to perform an artistic floor routine. Gymnasts are pausing before the tumbling passes. It's all about endurance and power. The FIG should be concerned by the number of injuries.
The Code doesn't reward good execution properly. Is it worth devoting time to basics and ballet?
For those who think that Biles has improved her form, pause her routines, her leaps, her layout laytout, and so on. On bars she uses strenght and not flight. Is this the execution we want?
Dear QE
ReplyDeleteI've heard that the stipends Russian gymnasts get each month amount to 3000 US is there any truth to that? Also I've heard that AG is not very popular in Russia these days. Do you know if there's any truth to that as well? Thanx in advance for responding. Keep up the good work.
The amount the gymnasts earn varies according to their results. I do not know the amounts. AG isn't popular at all.
DeleteIf the 3,000 US figure has any credibility, that equates to approximately 118,000 Rubles monthly (accounting for the 40% loss in value of the Ruble today). On an annual basis, that would be over 1,400,000 Rubles!! I suspect it would be difficult for Russia to sustain (or justify) that kind of stipend especially if no appreciable medals are brought home. In the winter Olympics in Sochi, there were monetary "prizes" awarded athletes who brought medals home-- on a sliding scale--about $110,000+- US (value) for gold, and downward from there. I thought it was about time that there was some kind of reward for excellence in competition since Russian athletes do not have the advantage of endorsements or other contracts as in the USA!! Incentive and reward is always an inspiration. Note that there were a significant number of medalists in Sochi. Even if lesser monthly amounts were paid to athletes not yet of Mustafina's caliber, it would still be a substantial outlay of Russian resources under current economic conditions. The government might find it difficult to justify paying only the gymnasts, and NOT providing similar stipends to those in, say, track & field, weightlifting, wrestling, marksmanship, etc., who contribute an equal amount of time and do, in fact, bring medals home.
DeleteI doubt that amount of money is given to them or gymnastics would be more popular since money always gets the attention regardless of the interest in the sport.
DeleteYou all are complaining because of how good Simone Biles is. She is a great talent. It's not easy. Yes she isn't that lean and tall like komova or pretty as mustafina. I know what many pple call artistic. It's beauty. Simone biles is awesome. She dances too and whines her waist. I am from Nigeria in Africa yet I m a big fan. I think the Russians are so inconsistent. The code is not their problem. Their problem is laziness. No one wants to learn new difficult skills. Why don't they come up with Prudova on vault so they can beat Simone biles? Other gymnasts are trying new things and I love serious competition with great skills and not throwing around pointed toes seeking cheap scores. Now if you want a great score, you have to earn it. Why didn't Dominique Moceanu win gold in 1996 Olympics? After all she was dancing like a bird and smiling like a princess. Let's give Simone Biles her credit please. No ill talk about execution scores bla bla bla. Even when Simone tumbles she makes it so easy and graceful. She will clean all medals in Rio including uneven bars. ...Mark my words!
ReplyDeleteIzchukwu, thank you for your post. you are commenting here on quite an old article and not many people might see your ideas. There is a more recent post on American and Soviet styles of gymnastics dated May 2016 - if you have time you might like to post there, too, and your ideas might be more likely to be read there. Best, QE
DeleteAll, Simone Biles is actually extremely flat-footed. This is the reason her toes(feet)don't appear to be pointed. To achieve that balletic toe point,the look that you guys are talking about, you have to really point your foot causing the natural arch of your feet to extend upwards. It is this extension of your arch through the foot that gives that fully extended beautiful, balletic look you guys are talking about. If a gymnast has very little of an arch or no arch to begin with as children, it is next to impossible for them to achieve that look. I have scrutinized her competition and training vids before and have noticed that she also has one of the main symptoms of this which is scrunching her toes in an effort to point them because she is trying so hard to point her foot. But like I said, it is next to impossible for an athlete with extremely flat feet to achieve that look. If you don't have an arch to create that shape in your foot, it just ain't gonna happen. Your feet will always appear to be sickled. I used to be one of those who didn't think Simone exhibited "artistry" either, until I noticed the way she presents all of her skills leaps included. She presents them as an athletic artist with vim and vigor. Her routines are only missing more classical dance elements. But I have noticed that when she does moves that are more associated with dance, see her wolf 2.5 on floor event finals in Rio, she actually evolved to doing that move with her arms in 5th position which is straight out of the dance books. I think Simone would have benefited from doing early ballet training when starting at her gym. I actually think she has the knack for it--barring the fact that she has absolutely no arch in her foot. My hope is she gets some ballet training, and continues to try to incorporate into her program. Dance instruction teaches your how to be expressive with your body and to do things that are difficult with grace and control. Hopefully she and the next crop of gymnasts will all be able to incorporate that into their programs.
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