I have yet to source a full translation of this 2nd November television discussion between National Coaches Rodionenko, Olympic Champion Aliya Mustafina and 1988 Olympic Champion and FIG judge Elena Shevchenko. Some fragmentary details provided by Rachael Liv on Gymfever (:-)) suggest that it addresses the results of the 2013 World Championships again, with Andrei Rodionenko providing reasons that his team did not perform as well as, perhaps, the Russian public had expected. Pretty much a re-run of his earlier press interview that appeared on VTB. Shevchenko apparently mentions that the biggest worry during her competitive years was making the Soviet team, so evidently some comparisons are being made between today's gymnastics and the Golden Era. If anyone has time to add any translations to the comments on this post, we would all be very grateful ... I know that translating such a discussion in its entirety is painstaking and arduous ...
NOTE : PLEASE SCROLL DOWN TO THE COMMENTS FOR A TRANSLATION BY CAPTAIN HOOK! Thank you Captain.
Out of fairness, I should point out that my comments below have turned into a general rant rather than a particular comment about this programme, which turns out to have been a review of the 1988 Olympic Games with some comparisons to gymnastics today. Lesson learned, I will always wait for a good translation before committing myself to print in future ... I still think Russian gymnastics should give itself more credit for its achievements, and will leave the rest of this post intact for the record.
Queen Elizabeth is officially disappointed ... Why is Andrei Rodionenko so intent on making excuses for his team's performance? Is there a forward plan for next year's competitions? Some of the points that are being made in the current press round do have some validity ... for example, a few days ago National Junior MAG coach Nikolai Kryukov highlighted that the selection of the current team has been complicated by a lack of emphasis on sport during the gymnasts' formative years, thanks to societal and political changes in the Russian Federation; in other words, there were far fewer Russians coming in to gymnastics than at other times, explaining current problems with strength in depth.
We are perhaps also guilty of constantly comparing the Russians to the Soviets, whose teams included not only Russia, but also such countries as Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Latvia. As Oksana Chusovitina has said, this powerful alliance could probably still dominate gymnastics today if it could find a way of joining forces, training and competing together. But in reality, Russia was only ever a small part of the Soviet team and its leadership, or eventual domination of the world sport upon the breakdown of the Soviet Union, was not inevitable.
But I do think also that Rodionenko is guilty of talking down his team's achievements. Rather like Eeyore, he sees the gloomy side first, without shining a light on the good. Why not give credit, where credit is due? For example, he has said that Aliya Mustafina was 'not supposed' to win beam. But Mustafina brought home the goods in every way, including an all around bronze (meaning that she has medalled in the all around at every single major senior competition of her career), a bronze on bars, and that gold on beam. Mustafina has certainly rescued the Russians on more than one occasion this year, and last, and her achievements should shine out like a beacon of encouragement for her team mates, and for younger gymnasts.
Was it such a surprise that the Russian star took a beam medal? In the days before the apparatus finals Mustafina herself highlighted the fact that her D value on beam was now higher than her D value on bars. She won the event with a routine that expressed more about the full meaning of artistic gymnastics than any of the other exercises on display that day, and Rodionenko should not apologise for this. Mustafina's gold was as well deserved as any of the other golds at that World Championships, and perhaps more deserved than some that were gifted at the Olympics. Given her severe competitive schedule this year, and the problems of illness and injury she has had to overcome, it was a medal that 'weighed heavier than gold', as Russian journalist Natalia Kalugina said.
In my opinion Rodionenko should emphasise the expectations he is now putting on the Russian team as a whole, not allow himself to be hauled over the coals and end up making excuses. It is apparent, on the evidence of the gymnasts' performance and the reports of such witnesses as Alexandrov, that a relative lack of discipline across the teams, in one way or another, has been as responsible for disappointing outcomes as the unavoidable, unfortunate facts of illness and injury.
I wonder why the panel did not include Garibov, Ablyazin or any of the MAG team? In my view their performance was infinitey more disappointing than the WAG team ... It would also be good to see Afanasyeva or Komova take a little of the media pressure off the shoulders of Mustafina, who seems very rarely to be accorded a break.
I am not able to post as frequently as I would like at present, due to work pressures. Please bear with me, I have a number of posts 'in the making' but do not know when I will finish them ...
One key piece of information that should be shouted out is that the Voronin Cup is back on the calender!! Competition dates 1st to 5th December.
This is the 666th post on this blog ... creepy.
NOTE : PLEASE SCROLL DOWN TO THE COMMENTS FOR A TRANSLATION BY CAPTAIN HOOK! Thank you Captain.
Out of fairness, I should point out that my comments below have turned into a general rant rather than a particular comment about this programme, which turns out to have been a review of the 1988 Olympic Games with some comparisons to gymnastics today. Lesson learned, I will always wait for a good translation before committing myself to print in future ... I still think Russian gymnastics should give itself more credit for its achievements, and will leave the rest of this post intact for the record.
Queen Elizabeth is officially disappointed ... Why is Andrei Rodionenko so intent on making excuses for his team's performance? Is there a forward plan for next year's competitions? Some of the points that are being made in the current press round do have some validity ... for example, a few days ago National Junior MAG coach Nikolai Kryukov highlighted that the selection of the current team has been complicated by a lack of emphasis on sport during the gymnasts' formative years, thanks to societal and political changes in the Russian Federation; in other words, there were far fewer Russians coming in to gymnastics than at other times, explaining current problems with strength in depth.
We are perhaps also guilty of constantly comparing the Russians to the Soviets, whose teams included not only Russia, but also such countries as Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Latvia. As Oksana Chusovitina has said, this powerful alliance could probably still dominate gymnastics today if it could find a way of joining forces, training and competing together. But in reality, Russia was only ever a small part of the Soviet team and its leadership, or eventual domination of the world sport upon the breakdown of the Soviet Union, was not inevitable.
But I do think also that Rodionenko is guilty of talking down his team's achievements. Rather like Eeyore, he sees the gloomy side first, without shining a light on the good. Why not give credit, where credit is due? For example, he has said that Aliya Mustafina was 'not supposed' to win beam. But Mustafina brought home the goods in every way, including an all around bronze (meaning that she has medalled in the all around at every single major senior competition of her career), a bronze on bars, and that gold on beam. Mustafina has certainly rescued the Russians on more than one occasion this year, and last, and her achievements should shine out like a beacon of encouragement for her team mates, and for younger gymnasts.
Was it such a surprise that the Russian star took a beam medal? In the days before the apparatus finals Mustafina herself highlighted the fact that her D value on beam was now higher than her D value on bars. She won the event with a routine that expressed more about the full meaning of artistic gymnastics than any of the other exercises on display that day, and Rodionenko should not apologise for this. Mustafina's gold was as well deserved as any of the other golds at that World Championships, and perhaps more deserved than some that were gifted at the Olympics. Given her severe competitive schedule this year, and the problems of illness and injury she has had to overcome, it was a medal that 'weighed heavier than gold', as Russian journalist Natalia Kalugina said.
In my opinion Rodionenko should emphasise the expectations he is now putting on the Russian team as a whole, not allow himself to be hauled over the coals and end up making excuses. It is apparent, on the evidence of the gymnasts' performance and the reports of such witnesses as Alexandrov, that a relative lack of discipline across the teams, in one way or another, has been as responsible for disappointing outcomes as the unavoidable, unfortunate facts of illness and injury.
I wonder why the panel did not include Garibov, Ablyazin or any of the MAG team? In my view their performance was infinitey more disappointing than the WAG team ... It would also be good to see Afanasyeva or Komova take a little of the media pressure off the shoulders of Mustafina, who seems very rarely to be accorded a break.
I am not able to post as frequently as I would like at present, due to work pressures. Please bear with me, I have a number of posts 'in the making' but do not know when I will finish them ...
One key piece of information that should be shouted out is that the Voronin Cup is back on the calender!! Competition dates 1st to 5th December.
This is the 666th post on this blog ... creepy.
Just wondering how Aliya's D on beam is higher than bars? Her D on beam was higher at the beginning of the year than it was at Worlds but she did upgrade on bars... just kind of not getting that part, that's all :)
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't understand that either. Looking up the Antwerp results quickly, it appears that her D-score on bars in qualifications was 6.2 and her D-score on beam was a 6.0 in quals. Then for AA finals, her bars D-score was a 6.7 and her beam D-score was a 5.8. For bar finals, she received a 6.5 D-score and for beam finals, a 6.0 D-score. At the beginning of the year, she was doing a far more difficult beam routine and a far less difficult bars routine than the ones we saw at Worlds. I wasn't necessarily SHOCKED she won Gold, but just on the day of beam finals (not even mentioning potential D-scores) Ross had an equal D-score, and Biles, Shang and Iordache all had higher difficulty scores. So not a shock per say, but perhaps a bit of an upset. It was all about her E-score on beam.
DeleteExcellent analysis! I thoroughly enjoyed this read. The only point of order I have is that it would have been a pretty much flawless piece if you had followed your own advice about not bringing others down and had not put in a quick jab about your disagreement with some Olympic scores. Other than that, wonderful! Very well done Queen Elizabeth.
ReplyDeleteOn qualifying day Mustafina performed a wonderful series on beam with a double spin leg high in front of her after the Onodi. Although her routine was not good because she had wobbles nobody commented this on the internet. Her score was critiziced for being to high compared to other gymnast's.
ReplyDeleteWhere does she say that her D score is higher than her bar score?
In this fragment of the discussion, you linked, they mostly talk about 1988 olympics and soviet gymnastics system. They say, that the most difficult competition for soviet gymnasts wasn't the world championship or olympics, but soviet championship. There is no excuses or something similar to that, so your anger looks completely unreasonable. I guess, the reason of your anger is in a different part of this discussion we couldn't see.
ReplyDeleteObviously I have turned into Mrs Angry from Tonbridge Wells (a well known legendary character who sends angry letters complaining about everything from the colour fast nature of her husband's socks to the poor quality of the elastic in her underwear) as this is the same fragment as I originally commented on. I had been led to believe it contains comments about the ethnic origin of the American world champion as an explanation for her dominance. 'Oh no, not again', I thought and let rip with the vicious comparison to Eeyore. Please bear with me, I am trying to work across languages and culture and I do feel some frustration at the self-effacing and somewhat negative nature of some of the recent media, not the fighting talk I expect from Russian gymnastics at all ... Thanks as ever for your translation Cpt Hook, if ever you were feeling strong enough to do a fuller one, I would l
Deletecont'd ...
Deletelove to read it :-)
Sure, I understand. I'll try translate it, but without being too precise.
Deletecut/
Host: This Olympics ( I guess he means 1988 Olympics- beginning of this video is cut off ) was very successful for both soviet teams, men and women. They won a lot of gold medals. In other words it was very memorable Olympics for our gymnastics and today we will speak with people who were participants on this event.
Then hosts introduces the guests of the show: 1988 Olympic Champion Elena Shevchenko, regular guest V-Rod, A-Rod and special guest Aliya Mustafina and add that this is unusual for them to have still active gymnast as a guest and they will ask her about modern gymnastics later in the program. They call Aliya 'rare bird' and clumsily trying to decide on what kind of rare bird she looks like, but nothing is come to mind and they postpone solution for later. Then they complimented Elena and first questions directed to Elena and A-Rod as participants of 1988 Olympics.
Elena: answers usual stuff you can here in every other interview of the Olympics participant: existing, to young to fully understand, responsibility, every athlete dream,a lot of work, luck.
A-Rod: The hardest thing was to assemble the team, because soviet gymnastics pool was very strong and they were able to assemble 2 equally strong teams easily. That's why soviet championship and soviet cup were the hardest competitions for gymnasts and trainers. Level of competitiveness was very high and we don't have this now. Level of competitiveness from the other world teams was lower, then now and soviet team trainers often chose bright, memorable personality's over great technicians. The next Olympics was after the fall of Soviet Union and this was the end of soviet gymnastics.
Hosts: sad.
Elena: Confirms the words of A-Rod about the importance of the soviet championship.
A-Rod: He has clear memory about Olga Mostepanova: after winning some big competition before the Olympics she said to the correspondent, that she isn't sure, if she will be the part of Olympic team, it will be clear after the Soviet championship.
Host: blablabla
V-Rod: Modern gymnastics are a lot harder for sure, but we still can learn the high level of execution from the gymnasts of the past. Modern level of execution is lower but we are trying to balance the difficulty with execution. We still better in execution than everyone (my rehashing). Modern gymnastics emphasise difficulty over execution, but in late CoP they try to return some artistry and this is good.
Host: blabla
A-Rod:Yes, artistry is slowly coming back and we are the reason of it. I spoke with many judges and they want soviet gymnastics back. You can look at our London Olympics team: Aliya, Komova, Grishina, Afanasieva and they are soviet class gymnasts, despite higher difficulty level.
Host: We spoke with many athletes from different sports and they all agreed on devastating effects caused by the collapse of soviet union in the early 90-th. we lost a whole generation.
DeleteA-Rod: Yes. I can give you example: after watching Xeniya Afanasieva many people are saying with nostalgia: this is real soviet gymnastics. This is brand, mark of quality.
All together: Remembering the great Olga Korbut.
Host: Same level of excitement I experienced while watching Aliya winning beam against all odds. Aliya, what do you think about beam routines from that time (Boginskaya, Shushunova) ? They made our gymnastics famous.
Aliya: They different for sure. It was beauty and class over difficulty, and now difficulty is more important. They were a lot more beautiful, then modern routines.
Host: blablablabla. Where is the balance of difficulty and execution?
A-Rod: Atop of all, rules for the competition is different now. Old rules for team competition were- 6 are competing and 5 scores counts, modern rules- 3 are competing and 3 scores counts. There's no margin for errors and this is very unnerving for a gymnast. We tried this system home and it was really stressful for all gymnasts. High stress level causes high error count.
Host: Elena, what do you think about modern gymnastics? Compare it to your time in gymnastics.
Elena: VT and FE are not that different. UB and BB are much more difficult now. I couldn't do modern UB, its to difficult for me. ( laughing )
Host: So modern WAG is not so different after all?
A-Rod: Aliya's program is much more complicated, than old programs.
cut/
Russia's performance was not that bad after all... Mustafina won 3 medals and Balandin, one silver. The unbeliveable thing was how the whole team was injuried in a short period. Rodionenko should stop sending top gymnasts to minor competitions like Universiade.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't make sense because it was the Ministry's decision to send the best teams to the Universiade. Rodionenko just did what he was told to do. Even Komova made a statement saying she wanted to compete there. A week later they found out that she was not a student. Mustafina was dying to compete there. It should be understood in the framework of Russia's interests.
ReplyDeleteI speak Russian as well so I listened to the link you posted in Russian. Radioenko needs to go. Between blaming the code, saying that the Soviet Gymnastics were easier than anything Aliya does now (the look on Aliya's face and Elena's attempt at defending her gymnastics were kind of priceless) and that the Russians are the reason why the code for the new quad is trying to return to more artistry (according to him Russians are the only ones who have been able to master artistry and execution), he is a mess. It's too bad Aliya can't compete for some other country -- I am pretty sure her old coach before Alexandrov coaches in WOGA, maybe she can move here too, haha.
ReplyDeleteAlexandrov is the national head coach of Brazil, so unless she suddenly switches her nationality to Brazilian, there is no chance her and Alexandrov will be reunited as a team.
DeleteThe reason for the focus on Seoul is that the show always shows highlights from past olympics and then invites athletes to discuss. I once asked the host of the program when they were going to show gymnastics during the time they were showing the 1964 Olympics and he said "if and when I can get the athletes to come to the studio." Almost every time they've done a gymnastics show, they've had the Rodionenkos. Because they can't seem to find anyone else. It gets really annoying.
ReplyDeleteSeoul is a reasonable focus here though as in many ways it was the peak of Soviet dominance in world gymnastics and a counterpoint to today. But it seems odd that they don't have more panellists from that era. Valentina wasn't in the mix at all until very recently when she seems to have become Andrei's spokesperson. Why not invite Arkayev? They have opted for the Moscow based people, but only two people on this panel were involved in the Seoul Olympics.
DeleteAre there videos, to your knowledge, of any other programmes in this series? What is the programme title/names of the two presenters? Thank you for talking to us!!
But why invite Mustafina who wasn't even alive. If they needed a warm body, at least get Kolesnikova and Komova since Vera was around.
DeleteOff the top of my head since i haven't seen it in a while and the video is sitting in a hard drive in my parents house, these were the participants in the various gymnastics themed programs:
1964 MAG: Lisitsky, Dmitri Zhilinsky (the artist who made the famous Gymnasts of the USSR painting), Leontiev. That was actually a cool one and they identified who everyone was supposed to be in the painting.
1964 WAG: Latynina and Valentina Rodionenko. There was someone else I just can't remember who.
1968 MAG: Lisitsky and Sergei Diomidov
1972: the coaching staff, Valentina, Grebyonkin, Alfosov
1976 MAG: Titov, Dityatin with Andrianov doing a call in since he was already really sick. I think Andrei was there with Kalugina but don't remember
1976 WAG: Kalugina, Rodionenko, Zamolodchikova, Latynina
Thanks for the information, this is fascinating and indeed many of those featured seem to have little to do with the competition in question :-)
DeleteI think Mustafina was there to provide a perspective on gymnastics today.
I agree for the most part with what you said here. I don't like how the Rodionenko's are making excuses and looking at the negative, as well. Aliya did great at Worlds. However, I don't think that Aliya's beam routine this year "artistic." It was fluid and smooth, but there was barely any choreography. Just some arm wavers. That isn't artistry. Basically no one is artistic on beam these days, including the Russians. It is either no choreography at all or just waving your arms. You can actually see how Aliya took out almost all her beam choreography. Another thing I want to make a note on is that the Rodionenkos say that the Russian's have the best execution. I disagree. They have the nicest lines and fluidity, but not execution. They have some obvious flaws. All the other countries have obvious flaws too though. Also, many Soviets had high level of difficulty. Shushonova, for example, at certain points in her career did a DTY, Thomas Salto, 1 3/4 piked arabian to roll out, full in dismount off beam, and the "Shushonova" on bars. Then, you have Dudnik who has a competitive beam routine even today.She had a full twist on beam, triple twist dismount, arabian bars mount, and DTY. Groshokova also is one of the only gymnasts to do a double full in. Even Boginskaya had difficulty at one point, doing a double double. She did turn into a gymnast with great execution, but low difficulty though. There are so many others, as well. There was a lot of difficulty and innovation in "old" gymnastics. Gymnastics didn't get much more difficult in terms of skills, but the amount of skills being done. Komova, Mustafina, Grishina, and Afanasveya are great, but I wouldn't call any of them "Soviet Class" in terms of artistry. Afanasveya for her 2011-2012 work, maybe. It was original and beautiful. However, 2013 is a different story. I was not a big fan of that routine. It was just waving her arms. I love Grishina's beautiful lines and choreography, but she looks too tired and doesn't "sell it" like a Soviet did. Soviets engaged you in their performance. Komova again has beautiful lines and toe point, but doesn't have great choreography that suits her or isn't the best at selling it. She looks like she walks through it, is bored, or tired. the only time she really sold it was in her AA routine. Mustafina has a presence about her and was very artistic on floor from 2009-2012. 2013 she looked like she was walking through her routine and bored. It wasn't her best (the Euros routine). Her 2013 AA Worlds routine was nice though. Sorry for writing this much. My points are that the Rodionenkos need to stop making excuses, there is basically no beam choreography, lines/fluidity/toe point doesn't equal artistry or execution, and that none of the gymnasts nowadays are "Soviet Class" in artistry, including the Russians. This is also based mostly on opinion and I am not bashing Russian gymnastics.
ReplyDeleteWhat you call it "waving arms"? There is a difference between having delicate and expressive arms and hands movements with actually just doing the motion of waving an arm or hand.
DeleteI totally agree with Kaleyloves. But this "waving arms" is imposed by the Code of Points. Romanians are the best at doing this: they create the impression that they are moving although they are not. They are just preparing for the following trick.
DeleteAs for choreography, Mustafina gives the impression of walking. The technicians who gave so much value to jumps and spins in FX got it wrong. The gymnasts stand, pause and then do the element. Currently, no value is given to steps in general or to the music. Where are the deductions in Biles FX for what is not a difficulty (an acro series or a jump)? She cannot connect all this to dance. But again, the Russians are not like the Soviets.
Artistry is more than just choreo though, which is also stressed in the CoP. Perhaps look at Uncle Tim´s blog. He´s looking at how artistry has been defined in CoP over the years.
DeleteSorry for the late reply. You can see the "waving arms" basically every time they are setting up for a dismount on beam or a tumbling pass on floor. They are trying to pass it off as choreo to avoid deductions. Basically everything a gymnast does is to "milk" the code.
DeleteThe Rodionenko's have always been good at making excuses and I find it schocking they still remain in position. I don't doubt that, if it were in any other country, they'd be fired a long time ago.
ReplyDeleteThey rely on Mustafina far too much and it's not healthy for a team or for her. The injuries and illnesses were bad luck but if the Russians didn't have Mustafina or if she wasn't collecting medals right and left, the Rodionenko's would've been fired.
And about the Men's side, who do they currently have that can make a true difference besides Ablyazin? They peaked too early, sure but in a field where the D-score is reaching insane heights, they really lack. They have no one that can challenge Zonderland or Hambuchen on bars and Uchimura has been dominating the AA for years now. And with Shirai being able to perform a quadruple twist with relative ease, I don't see them making much of an impact anytime soon. They miss an Alexei Nemov type.
I agree with you. " The Rodionenko's have always been good at making excuses and I find it schocking they still remain in position. I don't doubt that, if it were in any other country, they'd be fired a long time ago.
DeleteThey rely on Mustafina far too much and it's not healthy for a team or for her. The injuries and illnesses were bad luck but if the Russians didn't have Mustafina or if she wasn't collecting medals right and left, the Rodionenko's would've been fired."
Well spoken
I always thought the real motives of Aleksandrov have gone to Brazil was he had no more endure the craziness of the Rods , and not the fact that if he had been Alyia´s Coach , she would be persecuted by the Rods .
ReplyDeleteThe Rods will never recognize the victorious outcome of Alya Mustafina in the World 2013, simply because it is the pot of gold Aleksandrov still shining .
The Rods will never give to Alyia the real value she deserves as a top senior gymnasts. She is the product of the work of Aleksandrov .
AR is so proud and presumptuous that he is unable to see that the "problem " of the WC 2013 is the result of their failure and inability technique. While he blame others and the stumbling blocks of life , and still have the political support , the Russian team will not improve .
Without compromising the gymnasts and coaches , without discipline , without leading spirit of the head coach , who is the first to screw your own team ....The result of the team is the result of the work of the head coach .
About Mustafina , I think she did the best she could . Really , after competing all year without a break to rest , no time to practice their routines , the AA Bronze , Bronze UB has much gold weight . She is a warrior .
As for the Russian artistic not be equal to the Soviets, I think the Russians have to play by the rules .... Nelli Kim said the U.S. gymnastics are much more power, she prefer bodies better prepared, and almost said in caps letters she doesn´t like Komova and Musty, she prefers the Americans ... So Alyia did her job. If it is to do acrobatics on top of acrobatics, .....Let's be acrobatic gymnasts!!
As said b4
Delete"As for choreography, Mustafina gives the impression of walking. The technicians who gave so much value to jumps and spins in FX got it wrong. The gymnasts stand, pause and then do the element. Currently, no value is given to steps in general or to the music. Where are the deductions in Biles FX for what is not a difficulty (an acro series or a jump)? She cannot connect all this to dance."
But I would finish this paragraph like that So Russians CANNOT BE not like the Soviets.