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Lupita translates : Nelli Kim interview (November 2012)



Lupita translates a recent Sports Panorama interview:

Nelli Kim: triple back on floor

Nelli Kim at the USSR Display, Wembley, London, 1979.  Courtesy of Finyo.

She considers herself Belarussian, although she lived in Kazakhstan until 1977 and now resides in Belarus, the US and Switzerland.  To be more precise, Nelli Kim has no home in the country of watches, banks and cheese, where she spends many months every year.  Yet, her soul is in Belarus, whose colours she defended during the last years of her fabulous gymnastics career.  Five time Olympic champion and world champion, she was recently in Minsk to brief Belarussian specialists on the new aspects of the next Code of Points.
— The Code of Points will be enacted in 2013. The judges will receive new categories, she explained. I decided to come first to Minsk. To whom do I have to explain the nuances of the new Code other than Belarussian specialists?  I’ll meet with coaches and judges; we’ll talk about new trends in artistic gymnastics during the new quad. It’s a pleasure to meet again people with whom I have spent so many years in sport. Every one of my visits is not only work, but satisfaction from meeting people significant to me. 
In October you were re-elected for the third time as President of the FIG Technical Committee …
— Yes, for the next four years I will be the President of the Women’s Technical Committee. I’ll be responsible for the Olympic competitions, the World Championships, the Code of Points , the judging, the assessment of the judges’ scores at tournaments, sanctioning judges.
— Could you be more precise on this last topic?
— My function is to supervise the scores of a gymnast’s routine. At the end of any championship, we gather and, after a computer assessment, we score the judging of every judge. If someone has not worked well, we sanction her with a red card and we suspend her from the next championships.
— As far as I know, the suspension of a judge is not an easy proceeding. The Disciplinary Commission interferes.
— It is created within the framework of the FIG and comprises three jurists and three gymnastics specialists. We tell them our conclusions and the members of the commission decide upon a judge.  We are amateurs. It’s not about business; it’s sport in an amateur sense.
— Do suspensions happen often?
— After the 2011 World Championships in Tokyo, two judges were suspended. One of them was a Romanian who won an Olympic medal. The Committee decided to suspend them for the London Olympics. Moreover, they will not be allowed to participate in the intercontinental course next year. They will not obtain the D elite category responsible for the most important tournaments.
— What is this intercontinental course about?
— The course will present the new guidelines in judging, that we’ll start applying in the new quad, including the 2016 Olympics. All the concerned persons, indlueint the Belarussian judges as well, must take the course, sit for exams and obtain a judging category. There is now a fight to take part in this process, to influence the trends in gymnastics.
— Could you share with us the innovations in judging [the new Code of Points]?
— We shifted some elements from one group to another, depending on their popularity in the competitions. If an element is often performed, it’s not difficult and it should score less. And, on the contrary, if it is less performed, it means it’s difficult and deserves more points. We pay attention to connections, and still to artistry. We plan to introduce big deductions in floor and beam. We invited representatives from Cirque du Soleil, who trained our specialists how to understand and assess artistry. Тhis happens for the first time. Never have there been so many deductions in this direction. The understanding of art, of music by the judges is more necessary than ever. But there is subjectivism and there will be. Everyone interprets beauty in their own way. But we’ll try to assess something subjective with objective criteria.
— How is that?
— You’ll agree with me that a part of artistry is the body’s position, a music well-suited to the routine, fluid transitions from one part of the routine to the next.
— Don’t you think that sometimes gymnastics competitions become a noisy mess. The audience, not pleased with the scores, create a real scandal. Under their influence, the judges meet, change the scores, and the winners change.
— At the last Olympics, this happened in the men’s competition, when a Ukrainian gymnast lost bronze in a pommel horse routine. Men’s judges have more serious problems than we have because there’s less control over the judges.
The men’s Technical Committee was chaired by Adrian Stoica, from Romania, but he decided to stand as a candidate for President of the FIG and lost. Bruno Grandi was re-elected for the fifth time. Later, Stoica was candidate for the Men’s Technical Committee, but he lost again. The president of the men’s committee is Steve Butcher, the first black president in the history of the FIG.
— To come back to the scores in gymnastics, skating officials have found a way out by including a system of points for the execution of an element, for the level of complexity.
— We have the same system as skating, yet I think that their approach is not good. They drop scores that help assess the situation. We rule out the lowest and the highest scores and we take into account the average scores. They can rule out these scores and keep the highest and the lowest.
What we have in common with ice-skating is that the difficulty elements are classified according to a group from «А» tо «G», аnd now we have also included «H». In the score this is reflected by 0.1 to 0.7, and now 0.8. If gymnasts do a triple back on floor, and, of course, land on their feet, they can get the highest bonus.
So far the women don’t go for this extreme, while the men have been doing this for a long time. When they competed, Valeri Liukin and Sergei Kharkov performed those elements excellently!
— Apart from the seminar, you had time to meet Vladimir Karpovich, President of the Belarussian Gymnastics Federation.
— The unforgettable Vladimir Ilich [Lenin] once said that personnel solve everything. This statement is still true today. If there are no coaches, even with the best equipment, there won’t be results. The passion for gymnastics exists in the Belarussian, Russian and Ukrainian peoples. After finishing their careers, many athletes became good coaches. Right now, most of them former Soviet citizens, are coaching our rivals in the US, Аustralia, Canada, France. Salaries abroad are from 3,000 to 5,000 US dollars!
I was pleased to see that the president of the Association fiercely wants to help gymnastics, He wishes to know my opinion in order to improve the situation. Our meeting was very fruitful.
— Your daughter lives in the US. Where are you more often, in Belarus or in the States?
— Half and half. My ex-husband is a cyclist, Valeri Movchan, a Moscow Olympics champion. He lives in Minsk. My daughter finished her studies at a business school in Chicago and she now wants to study medicine. However, she doesn’t give up amateur sport; she practices different activities.

Мikhail DUBITSKI


This interview took place before recent rumours that the WAG Code of Points will change once again before enactment in 2013, leading to ten skills counting on floor, in order to harmonize with the MAG Code of Points.

I like what Nelli says about artistry in this interview - doubt the judges would be willing or capable of enacting it all fully but the ideas of involving specialists to help train judges in the appreciation of artistry, of the importance of transition from skill to skill, of acknowledging the subjectivity of judgement, seem to be steps in the right direction.  

But then my heart sank when I read of the proposed changes.  Counting ten difficulties on floor, and four dance elements, seems regressive.  Do we want our floor routines to turn into a frantic battle to fit in as many poorly executed tumbles, turns and leaps as quantitatively possible, without consideration of mood, feeling or flow?   Will the music become a mere incidental, background accompaniment, robbed of any significance or relation to the drama of a performance?  If the FIG feels the need to harmonize, why not decrease the number of difficulties in men's gymnastics and emphasise there also the need for artistry and virtuosity?

What do you think?  Please comment ...

Comments

  1. I love what she says about artistry and what they intend to do encourage it/deduct the lack of it. But every time Kim pleases the audience with statements like this, the FIG seems to go in the exact opposite direction. What is it with Grandi? Why does it seem like he can get away with anything he wants, even against his official's intentions? I just frustrates me.

    Oh the other hand, a lot of people seem to enjoy this changes, including my own peruvian federation. I talked with the national head coach a few days ago and, wow, then you get why this changes we dislike so much keep happening. And why Grandi gets so much love. Not that I agree, but I understand.

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    1. That is REALLY interesting, Liliana ... it is said that Grandi gets his power from the high volume of less powerful gymnastics nations.
      But how could this benefit the Peruvian gymnasts? Do they even compete at World Championships? (forgive my ignorance).

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    2. There is a good prospect in the makings (there always is, but puberty comes pretty fast down here, and they usually stop competing before/on their first senior year). I don't think we've had a girl at Worlds in decades, but do believe this is going to work out.

      Anyway, we (me and coach) were just wandering over a lot of topics, and I brought out the artistry subject. You know, same stuff as always: difficulty over execution, atheticism over dance, expression, etc. And he told me that, since the equipment has gotten better and better for the gymnasts every year, thay have improved the difficulty, whereas in the 80s the equipment didn't allow it, so they worked over the choreography and artistry, and the russians won because their own tradition allowed them to be the best on that (and, of course, the excellent acrobatics).

      He explained that, when assuming the technical committee, Nellie Kim promised a "more russian" approach, which, he says, was improving the difficulty. And it was a more even field, focused on the athletics, which are easier to improve. And now they all keep building onto that. Peru has no high expectations on artistic gymnastics, but we're closing the gap with the leading nations of the region thanks to higher difficulty, not artistry (really, where can you even see it in the points?). He just thinks USA has beaten Russia (and russian tradition) because they have the best coaches from all around the world and a multimillionaire, deep system. Whether we like it or not, they're on top, and our coaches are just following.

      Also, he was very offended by those Alexandrov/Rodionenko's (i can't remember which one was it) quotes saying our coaches/judges/officials (regionally) worshipped and loved USA so they voted with them on FIG congresses, judged them better/didn't get all the deductions on the competitions. Long story short, Russians are just nostalgic and need to move on, because this (less artistry) is how the sport works.

      Then, there's also this budget issue: the national federation barely has enough money to keep the national gym open, and very few gymnasts training there (I was there on a friday night and there were five 12-14 year old juniors, two 10- juniors and no seniors at all), four hours a day. There is a cuban choreographer/floor coach, but not enough time to give to dance/ballet training. And, IF somehow they get any more money, equipment is the priority over more hours to artistry that isn't as rewarded as difficulty (some of their oldest stuff is pretty dangerous).

      [sorry, this is WAY too long]

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    3. This isn't too long, it is fascinating, and brings a lot of clarity and honesty to what is happening in the sport right now.
      If you would like to write it up and email it to me, I will publish it on the blog as an alternative view of the artistry v difficulty debate from the point of view of a developing country. Some photographs of the national team in training, perhaps, if at all possible?
      Only if you have time, but I think this would be really interesting. Thank you.

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    4. "Counting ten difficulties on floor, and four dance elements, seems regressive. Do we want our floor routines to turn into a frantic battle to fit in as many poorly executed tumbles, turns and leaps as quantitatively possible, without consideration of mood, feeling or flow?"

      Agreed, and if this is how it will be, I am not sure how much I can take. I liked the beauty/artistry of the sport. I watch a lot of sports so I see enough athleticism. Why can't there be a health balance of the 2?

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    5. Absolutely agree with you, Elizabeth.
      I'll have some time to write later in the week, or maybe starting the next week, is it ok?. I'll try to keep my english on check :)

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    6. That will be great! I will help with the English if necessary but I have rarely noticed any problems at all ... your English is excellent!!
      Thank you Liliana - this will be really interesting for our readers xx

      Delete
    7. "since the equipment has gotten better and better for the gymnasts every year, thay have improved the difficulty, whereas in the 80s the equipment didn't allow it, so they worked over the choreography and artistry..."

      I'm sorry, but this is no true at all. Have you forgotten that the 80's was the decade when artistic gymnastics became more difficult? The soviets not only had artistry, but also difficulty. Just look at the performances from 1985 to 1992. The soviets were a great example of difficulty and artistry being together and not just one or the other like we have today.

      To me this whole "difficulty being the new thing" argument is just a lame excuse for those who can't excel or just don't want to pay attention to the artistic part of gymnastics.

      I understand that some countries can't afford to have both and are more likely to go for difficulty since is the most rewarded aspect of gymnastics today, but adding more difficulty means more risk of injuries specially for those who don't have adequate training like the Americans.

      Let's face it, the difficulty is stuck in the USA. The Americans are going to keep winning with this code. I don't see how Peru or other countries can compete or have a change against them when the Russian and the Romanians still struggling in that aspect.

      I believe only those who can afford the difficulty will have a change in this code which is unfair.

      The solution to me is code that is more harsh for lack of execution in general like Kim said, position of the body on transitions, dance elements, tumbling, dismounts, landing, etc. Of course, reward more for execution as well. Not necessarily has to be about the dancing or the music interpretation because not everyone can afford to have good choreographers and dance teachers like the Russians.

      I think harsh deductions for execution will force gymnasts to lower difficulty and perform elements correctly. After all, this is what artistic gymnastics is suppose to be.

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    8. Any more views on this readers?


      I think that the interest in what Liliana says is in the fact that the Peruvian coaches, and presumably their federation, apparently believe it strongly enough to vote for Grandi on its basis. The direction of the Code is also overwhelmingly in the favour of the viewpoint that difficulty is primary and artistry almost completely nullified.

      Difficulty in gymnastics recently has become a question of quantity rather than quality. The FIG's attempts to count every element of a routine as a 'skill' has resulted in the degradation of the value of the routine as an artistic entity. The Soviets certainly did combine difficulty (originality) and artistry wonderfully. But on floor, for example, it was usual to perform three main tumble runs as opposed to the five or so these days. The impression that difficulty has increased therefore is based on the idea of quantity of difficulties performed rather than on the originality of the element or the progression it represents on existing performance of skills, eg moving from a 2.5 twisting Yurchenko to a triple twisting Yurchenko, which given the improvements in equipment is surprisingly absent from competition.

      I can't agree that execution deductions result in good evaluation of artistry. This is partly because the judges do not always do it well, partly because it's not possible to deduct fully for the overall form problems of such gymnasts as Raisman, and partly because it does not allow for positive evaluation and grading of artistry in the overall routine. Artistic evaluation is a matter of subjective judgement, not objective calculation and until the Code recognises this we won't have fair marking and artistry will remain absent from the sport.

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  2. I dont like how she doesnt answer the question when being asked about the changing of scores. We saw this a lot in London where several of the scores where changed. Certain coaches complained, and under the influence the judges met and changed the scores, therefore the winners changed. Wrong and Nellie was responsible for a lot of that.

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    Replies
    1. could you elaborate, please? Provide more detail and specific examples?

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    2. I think she just says what we want to hear! What happened after Beijing? They changed the code saying it would reward artistry and what did they do? They asked to perform more split jumps, just like if there were flips., if you put more twists in your splits jump you will get more points.....
      Is just stupid, it didn't work out, look who we have as Olympic champion, a girl who clearly has no artistry at all. That's where the judges have to keep an eye on, fluidity, musicality! Even the music they choose, the way they dance, the way they perform.

      To be honest I don't believe her, I feel like she is just part of the system and as long as the sport is filled with corrupted people, gymnastics will never improve.

      By the way my name is Sinhue and I love your page ;)

      Delete

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