It is an unfortunate fact of life that the wider internet - social media - encourages the covert, cowardly bullying that is often disguised as argument and opinion on the various gym forums. Some of the people posting there just don't know how to regulate their behaviour, and moderation can only work retrospectively. I wish people would think before they post ... would YOU like to read something so rude? Disagreements are allowed, and you don't have to like someone's writing style, but good manners cost nothing and are at the heart of a civilised society. This is gymnastics, not war. If you spoke like that to a stranger in the street, you would most likely be arrested for breach of the peace; or worse, if you chose the wrong person to abuse or attack.
I already moderate all comments, and don't want to make it difficult for people to post here, as so many of the comments - the vast majority - are interesting, honest and well considered. Blogger isn't the easiest platform to comment on without registering, so I have left the 'anonymous' option open in order to encourage participation. One or two people have abused this freedom, but I don't want to remove it when so many are contributing appropriately. I like it when contributors sign off their pieces with their names, eg Todd and John - this is good practice that others could copy, if they remember. If you are unsure, there are also participation guidelines available to read - follow the link in the header banner.
Gymternet bloggers - we all do it for love, and not much else. RRG has managed to keep going for five years - and will go on. I coordinate and write most of the material myself, but I have to thank a lot of other people for their input - blogs, photographers, the RGF, translators, other fans on the gym sphere, academics, writers like Vladimir Z. My fantastic readers who almost always make intelligent comment and foster an atmosphere of positive questioning.
I am not a journalist, and this blog isn't a money making venture. I do it to disseminate information on the gymnastics programme that I believe still produces the best classical gymnastics in the world; sometimes, out of sheer bloody mindedness, I do it to remind whoever is bothered to read that the sport of artistic gymnastics has an amazing heritage, and is so much more than this year's World Championships, or last year's Code update. Most importantly, I do it to learn more myself, and to enjoy the intellectual challenge of analysing how it has all come to be. I am proud to say that this blog has been behind the writing of some original work that is now appearing in peer reviewed publications and conferences.
The sole focus of this blog is the Russian and Soviet system, set within a framework of elite international artistic gymnastics. It will remain so.
The pictures above tell of just a few of the reasons that I keep updating this blog.
I just want to say thank you for writing this informative and inspiring blog. I adore Russian gymnastics and the way it transcends the practicalities of this world. I don't usually comment but after reading this post I felt compelled to thank you for your hard work and dedication to this wonderful subject. In the immortal words of Eleanor Roosevelt "no one else can make you feel inferior without your consent". All the best, Aileen
ReplyDeleteJust to say to you that I think you are doing an amazing job with this blog, especially with translation. I check it two or three times a week just to see if there is some news about Round Lake and i pretty much like the analyses about the old soviet system or the current russian one. So thank you and keep updating :)
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for this blog. Please go on writing about russian and Sovjet gymnastics
ReplyDeleteWhen there's no room of one's heart for love, he can say evil and cruel things ...
ReplyDeleteI can feel every word you said Queen Elizabeth, thank you for all your effort in the last five years and for years coming.
Have a good day
John
Even when I disagree, I appreciate your passion and what you bring to the greater gymternet as whole. Thank you for creating a platform for discussion on the sport I love, but also for giving the Russian teams context in what is happening in Russia today and in its past.
ReplyDeletePS. Komova's return is highly anticipated for me - even if she is not her absolute best as in the last quad, Russia desperately needs more all-arounders (which I believe we agree on based on your posts).
Queen Elizabeth, I love this blog because it's usually the only place where I can find updates on Russian gymnasts! Thank you so much for your hard work and all the fascinating articles! :) :) ~ Anna
ReplyDeleteI love your blog and your well-thought out essays. I visit your blog every day. Please do not let a few misguided commenters ruin such a fantastic blog for the rest of us! ;-)
ReplyDeleteThank you everyone!. Don't worry, I'm far too stubborn to give up because of one idiot, and I love my blog. I wouldn't be as old as I am without having faced down far worse - there was just something particularly obnoxious about this comment in particular - it made me angry and fed up with all the gratuitous rudeness of the gymternet - which is, thankfully, far from common on this blog. I'm still not sure that I should have published the comment/this post - I normally just delete rubbish comments and ignore them - perhaps I should have maintained my usual air silence?!
ReplyDeleteQueen Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteI love this blog because it focuses on Russian gymnasts! Even though I am American, Russia has always been my favorite gymnastics team. I also love love love your insight. That's why I usually post a question about what you think of certain results or a competition. Thank you for the wonderful blog!
Russiafan
Queen Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteIt's not you, it's them. I enjoy your blog even though I often disagree with you. You are entitled to your opinions. You contribute a valuable point of view to the gymternet. Those who don't like your writing should stop reading and start their own blog.
I may not agree with the comment you are referring to because I found it a bit harsh. However I can understand where this person was coming from. I was surprised by your piece and rather tempted myself to comment on how disappointed I was by your comments on Fragapane's style and routine. The only reason why I didn't comment was because I always live by the rule "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't comment." So I didn't. Still, this goes to show that there are some people who may love your blog (I do, most of the time) and Russian gymnastics (I do) without being fanatical to the point of blindly criticizing everything else. After reading your piece, I even checked you on Google to see how old you were likely to be. Simply because you sounded so immature. Like a teenage girl who's a die hard fan of the latest pop idol. Thanks for your blog, but one has to admit that the piece in question was substandard, over biased, and could not fail to provoke some negative reactions.
ReplyDeleteI must have missed where Queen Elizabeth was harsh on Fragapane??? Is it this part: "They were both compelling, but only one gymnast showed the purity and harmony that was once de rigeur in the sport, and that has frequently elevated artistic gymnastics above a form of energetic, cheerleading contortionism." Because that is not harsh or immature. She was describing exactly what it is. How would you describe her dance? Elegant? Balletic? No, it is energetic, cheerleading contrionism. There is nothing wrong with that; some people like that style. But lets call a spade a spade. There is a big difference between Ksenia and Fragapane: Ksenia is elegant and Fragapane is not; Fragapane is powerful and Ksenia is not as powerful.
DeleteRussiafan
I think that what some people don't like about the post is that it is gushing in its praise - and it's not fashionable in some circles to give positive reviews or appear too enthusiastic. My aim is to positively deconstruct whilst giving due credit to the viewpoints that I present - my bias is clear.
DeleteI am 56 - I know the difference between opinion, and bias. Bias is inherent in all writings about sports in general and gymnastics in particular. The Code is biased. Accepting the assumptions of the Code as unbiased, and commenting in its value judgements as absolute, is a hidden bias that too many accept without thinking. The sport today is a construct of technical progression, political and social influence and economic pressures. All writing about sport is biased in one way or another, although often people don't acknowledge or realise it. 'Objectivity' does not exist, so you might as well be obvious about your bias.
I didn't belittle Claudia in any way. And people can express negative reactions, if they want to, in an articulate and reasonable fashion, without needing to be rude.
I will be the first to tell you that you are a excellent writer, eloquent, passionate, and great at researching your subject matter. the problem is not simply your bias, but the that your blog gives absolutely no respect or great acknowledgement to other gymnastics programs ( except China). and that it comes off as quite anti- American. and when you do sometimes give that praise it come off as passive aggressive or sarcastic. You also are great at pointing out the deficiencies of other gymnastics programs but you pass over or gloss over some the horrific technique and forms of the Russian gymnastics. and you give open field to those who disparage or insult those same programs that you dislike. but now you ask for civility and respect. some of the example is your ability to give respect and glory to someone like Elena Zamolodchikova who was quite quirky and robotic and unique, but performed amazing gymnastics. but someone like Gabrielle Douglas who has almost the same qualities in terms of her gymnastics. you demean her effort and her hard work to achieve her goals. the same thing happens when praise is given to Elena Produnova, but Simone Biles who displays the same style of Gymnastics is not Good enough. the only reason they are not good enough for you or the Russian fanatics is the fact that they are born in the wrong Country or Continent. You speak about the code being Bias, but it has always been considered Bias. it was considered bias when the Soviet Union was dominating, It was considered bias when the Romanians were dominating, and is considered bias now that the Americans are dominating. the same way that it is considered bias towards the Chinese in men gymnastics. because like everything in life it ebbs and flows.
DeleteThe other factor that is a problem is the fact that many don't accept the fact that Artistry is not define by Ballet and Gymnastics is not about only those who consider it to be the one and all of it. and to continue my opinion I will deviate a little in saying that there is not only a prejudice towards gymnast who don't perform in the Soviet style of gymnastics, but that there is a trend of Sexism in the very sports of gymnastics. because both men and women Gymnastics have the Artistic tittle attach it, but we only focus on the women to be artistic, melodic, soft, and pretty with bows and pink. so when the men push the difficulty and the amount of twist and so on. we celebrate their virtuosity and their ability to elevate the sports. when a women does it all hell breaks lose and the sports is coming to and end. now don' take this as me not liking the Soviet style because I adore Mustafina, Afanaseva, and Spiridonova and their amazing carriage, balletic prose, and gorgeous lines and they have proven that they can have a lower difficulty than their competitors and still win because of those qualities. the same way are appreciate Gymnast who have power, difficulty, flight, and consistency. but at the end of the day is a sport and you have got to hit when it matters. is not about giving the title to those that you feel should get it no matter what.
Queen Elizabeth is honest about her biases. She does not need to be objective, or pretend to be objective, on her own blog. She clearly prefers a certain style of movement and presentation. That is fine. I applaud her honesty.
DeleteWe do not have to pretend to like everything. Most of us don't. If you find someone's dance unattractive, then it's ok to express that. But let's not get personal when someone expresses an opinion about style that is contrary to our own preference.
To Anonymous who said "the problem is not simply your bias..."The other factor that is a problem is the fact that many don't accept the fact that Artistry is not define by Ballet and Gymnastics is not..."
DeleteOk, this is a blog about Russian gymnastics. Hello! Look at the title, so of course Queen Elizabeth is going to be pro-Russian. Everyone has their favorites and biases. Obviously, you are biased toward American gymnasts and you are fan of Biles. Your bias makes you believe that Biles and Prudanova have the "same style of Gymnastics." No they don't. But that is ok. You are allowed to have your favorites. Maybe you can start your own blog.
Second, I have been an avid reader of this blog for a long time and Queen Elizabeth has written some great things about artistry and yes, ballet is part of artistry but not the only form of artistry. The best artistic gymnast had ballet as their foundation, but ballet is not the only form of artistic expression. For example, Boginskaya, Silivas, Raducan, Podkopayeva are four gymnast with four very different artistic style. All four were artistic, but only Podkoyayeva had balletic moves in her performance. What makes them all four equally artistic are their toe point, flexibility, fluid movements, and overall posture (chest high, straight back, etc.). These are elements that gymnast who are not artistic lack (e.g., Fragapane, Raisman, Wieber). Russian are less likely to lack these because almost all of them have the balletic foundation. There are some exceptions, like Zamo.
These are facts, not opinion and I am glad that someone is writing about this, because artistic gymnastics is losing its artistic elements. It makes me happy that countries like Russia and China still strive for artistry, despite the fact that it is not rewarded by the code of points. There is a reason why the late 70s and 80's is referred too as the Golden Age. Take a look at the best back then, you will see everyone was artistic and still managed to do amazing acrobats. This recognition is what makes this blog my favorite. If you want to read pro-American comments, then go read intlgymnast.
Russiafan
First of all I have no bias. i think i am one of the few who actually enjoy gymnastics from all over the world. i got into gymnastics very young. and my interest started in 1988 with the great Silivas Vs Shushunova. and guess who was considered less artistic and elegant (the Irony). Today I enjoy Mustafina, Andrade, Jinnan, Iordache, Biles, Thorsdottir, Afanasyeva, Downie. ect. equally. i am able to see each gymnast and enjoy their areas of strength and their opportunities and see the battle of the different styles occur. Second point is that i am completely aware of the purpose and main goal of the blog and have enjoyed her amazing writing prose and the history of the Soviet and Russian gymnastics. my issue has always been the negativity and condescending attitude towards American gymnast or the lack of respect for the hard work and effort that they put in. when you have gymnast like the ones you mentioned like Boginskaya, Raducan, and Silivas who have all praised the American gymnastic system. Third point is that You cannot form a objective opinion about the state of gymnastics overall, if your opinion does not take consideration of other style of gymnastics other that then soviet style. which at times this blog takes liberties to make. or to point out the bad gymnastics of other nations, yet ignore the same errors from those of the Russians.
DeleteAnd last for you to really believe that Biles and Produnova are not the same style of gymnast is not only laughable but delusional. so let me clarify.
Produnova, Biles, Wieber, Paseka, Downie, Shushunova. power gymnast. they can perform amazing gymnastics with great height, ease, precision, and technique. they make lack suppleness, grace, fluidity, carriage. but the virtuosity of the amazing gymnastics skills they perform makes you want to forever see them.
Komova, Silivas, Podkoyayeva, Dobre, Mustafina, Miller, Onodi. graceful, balletic, supple, amazing carriage, beautiful extensions. they perform gymnastics that is beautiful, simple, and airy with some touch of difficult skills.
Gutsu, Amanar, Douglas, Iordache, Jinnan, Kharenkova, Ponor, Gogean Zamolodchikova. steady, flexible, consistent, big skills done in great form and ease. quirky. this gymnast are a mixture of the power and balletic gymnast their gymnastics can be a little robotic but they perform gymnastics with their own style and essence.
and to close my reply is that no code will ever be perfect, because perfection is not attainable when the human emotions are involve so their will always be bias of all nature. and yes they were considered the golden ages for many. but for many it was unfair and bias towards ( here comes the Irony again) artistic gymnast who had the right height, weight, and built and for the Soviet who dominated that era. it was also considered unfair because it did not reward the difficulty that some gymnast performed. then the following code also had issues because it rewarded consistency and the Romanians performed routines that were repetitive and similar to each other and the Russians ( here comes another Irony) performed the most difficult and innovative skills but were inconsistent. so the code was changed again to reward both difficulty and consistency. and then came the Americans who perfected the art of difficulty and consistency. so most likely the code will change again to water down the difficulty and consistency. and like always we will all have the same issues about the code being bias. and the ebbs and flows will continue. but at the ends hopefully the sport will continue to evolve
I stopped reading when Anonymus said that douglas is similar to Zamo and Biles to Produnova. Speechless...
DeleteQueen Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteI know this is random and has little to do with the topic of your blog, but I was just curious of your perspective of the gymnastics produced in NCAA (collegiate) in the USA.
Hi, I don't have time to watch NCAA unfortunately, so I don't have an opinion - lots of big hair and face glitter, isn't it?
DeleteYou might want to give the NCAA a chance if you're a fan of "classic" gymnastics. Scoring is out of a 10 and good form is paramount. Gymnasts can't get away with flexed feet and bent legs just because they have greater difficulty. Floor routines emphasize dance and audience appeal over tumbling but there are plenty of double layouts, double Arabians and full-ins(with lunges). Beam routines show evidence of actual choreography! You will see a lot of former elites, Olympians and Worlds team members- Sam Peszek, Bridget Sloan, Ivana Hong, Ebee Price, Kristina Vaculik, Danusia Francis, Jenny Pinches,etc.- SMILING through their routines. It's all about the team in the NCAA and they seem to thrive in that atmosphere. It's a bit of a spectacle by design but for me, that's outweighed by the straight legs, pointed toes and pure joy on display. Plus the season is January-April so you get an extra four months of gymnastics to watch!
DeleteFace glitter, and big hair. You are so condescending. Yet you pretend otherwise. I don't think people would mind your attitude if you didn't try to back track and act innocent. You are not the saint of gymnastics blogging that you think you are.
DeleteTerribly sorry - it was a feeble attempt at humour ... lots of love, Mother Elizabeth
DeleteNCAA is on a 10 point scoring system which does mean they do less difficult skills and try for the best execution, but it also means that Elizabeth Price wins the vault title doing a very simple FTY, where we know she is capable of 2 1/2. Floor and beam do look more artistic, especially floor where they allow them to lunge out on landings, but the vaulting suffers and the bars suffers too since they allow the gymnasts to stand on the low bar to transition to the high bar. It is some good / some bad in my opinion.
DeleteYou know what's interesting? pro-america fans usually tend to deliver arrogant (if not rude) comments all over the gymnastics web places and forums, i have not seen that from other type of fans. It's a pity.
DeleteDon't worry, just keep writing, we do for the love of Gymnasts.Yes I even talk to Mr Hardy Fink from Canada that the problem is that many don't understand what is Artistry in Gymnastics.We called our sport Artistic Gymnastics but now the sport is losing its artistry .
ReplyDeleteQueen Elizabeth, which country do you think is closest to Russia in terms of artistry and performance quality? Is it Romania?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't break it down as being nationally delineated in this way - you have to read anything you can find on Russian cultural heritage, Soviet physical culture and the philosophy of sportivnosti - I have covered this in the blog superficially.
DeleteThose countries which share the similar training priorities - eg an emphasis on choreography from the earliest days - an emphasis on technique not muscle - will share the same characteristics. But what is unique about Russia is the feel and expression and the classical turn out, line and elevation, whatever the style of dance. I would say that technically, the Russian and Rimanian schools share some of the same characteristics, but the Romanian imagination is set more in folk than classical art.
Your blog is the best! I love what you do! Thank you so much!
ReplyDeleteEveryone, thank you for your comments. I am closing comments on this thread now as a discussion above is becoming heated and personal. I'm not going to issue any more guidelines or explanations - you should know by now.
ReplyDelete